That is a good reference.

I’m pretty sure that most people know that there is something not fully honorable about preventing ourselves from enjoying the pleasures of life, but we just don’t know how to verbalize it.

Rob Bell’s book, “Sex God,” is an excellent source for this topic.

Blessings,
Johnny

This will not be a problem for me.

I don’t know how accurate it is, but the Wikipedia discussion of Nazarites seems to shed some light on sinfulness of Nazarites and touches on the issue of Jesus as a possible Nazarite

BTW, a month or so ago we touched on baptism as a continuation of Mikvah immersion, and someone suggested John the Baptist’s baptism of Jesus couldn’t have been a Mikvah because Jesus would not have needed ritual cleaning from uncleanliness.

Couldn’t the opposite approach be taken: some of our subsequently developed ideology of Jesus may be, ah, a bit overstated?

In my opinion, and according to historical and cultural beliefs of first century Jews, Jesus’ baptism was accepted as his choice to introduce the Messianic age as the Prince of Peace symbolized by his entrance into the Jordan River.

However, Jesus being called a glutton and a drunkard (Matthew 11:19; Luke 7:34) brings out the fact that, like the Phraisees, Jesus did drink wine. The Bible also tells us that he drank wine at the Passover. Abstaining from wine was not practiced by Jesus. With that said, I would point out that touching tax collectors, those who cleaned up dog dug from the streets, sinners, and others who were deemed ritually unclean would require a person (priest, prophet, rabbi, scribe, Torah teacher) to be cleansed in a Mikvah bath before serving at or entering the Temple. Jesus clearly defiled himself by his interaction with sinners, prostitutes, and tax collectors.

I would also add that a person who is ritually unclean is not considered a sinner. A woman who had recently given birth was required to bring a sacrificial offering and be baptized. Many women would wait months before they did this, as many of them lived far from the Temple and only visited during the Festivals. Ritual cleansing was not for those who were disgusting to God but for those who honored God by keeping the commandments of ritual cleanliness.

Walker, you bring up an interesting point.

Blessings,
Johnny

BTW, I understand that passage in M & L to be J’s example of how facts are misrepresented. Perhaps I am missing something.

And the Last Supper story is ambiguous as to whether He actually drank of the wine:

“27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine _from now on_ until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

The “from now on” is variously translated and I don’t think can be unambiguously taken as stating he had a little sip at that time.”

Good additions.

I find it interesting that even though a person took a vow as a Nazarite that some considered the vow of abstinence from wine to be sinful. That may be hard to accept for some of us, and I’m only going by what I am learning from ancient texts which are pointed out by writers such as Abraham Cohen. It would be a bit arrogant of us to completely disregard such important texts.

As far as Jesus saying that he would not drink wine again until he drinks it with the disciples in his Father’s Kingdom, Jesus’ words are to be understood with Jesus’ definition of his Father’s Kingdom which he brought to earth by his miracles and death. At the moment Jesus rose from the dead the disciples were with Jesus in his Father’s Kingdom, just as the thief on the cross to whom Jesus promised the same.

The confusion of that passage comes when we understand God’s Kingdom as only existing after our death or after the return of Christ.

Blessings,
Johnny

The one whose cup is being passed is the one to whom the alliance is being formed in honor of, therefore, the one whose cup is being passed was the first to sip from his own cup. This was a way of saying, “This is my cup of wine. Please take a sip from it as I have and be my partner in this or that.”

Marvin Wilson’s Our Father Abraham is a wonderful resource for the history of sharing the cup and breaking bread as an ancient, Jewish way of forming an alliance.

Blessings,
Johnny

Ah, but could that be that a back formation? Would it have applied to a “short term” Nazarite?

That is, if a Nazarite were within a group forging an alliance (or, perhaps-?- celebrating an existing alliance) would he or she be expected to break the Nazarite “vow” and tip the cup?

Blessings,
Johnny